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Softpanorama |
May the source be with you, but remember the KISS principle ;-)
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Rui Miguel Seabra wrote: > A copyright law violation is as severely pursued be it > Free Software as proprietary software "The church of GNU denounce copyright as an evil plot... unless this is connected with the direct attacks of the legality of GPL. ;-)" -- Bezroukov Letter by Alexander Telehov Re Use of GPL'd code with proprietary programs |
GPL has problems typical for any utopia. Still it does include some positive value. In The Soul of Man Under Socialism, Oscar Wilde wrote that "a map of the world which does not include Utopia is not worth looking at". As aptly noted: Ars Technica Intellectual Property and the Good Society - Page 1 - (8-2001)
Each aspect of a structure--the choice of a foundation, the materials, the location--reflects the values, interests, and goals of the person or group who built it. This is nowhere more evident than in the international intellectual property structures currently under construction by parties with an interest in maintaining the status quo of the offline world into the digital age. This global intellectual property regime is being developed quite deliberately by a very select group of transnational corporations with vast patent, copyright, and trademark holdings, holdings that are essential to their survival. Furthermore, this group justifies their vision of how this structure is turning out by using the language of rights--language that works to this group's benefit in exactly the way I outlined above. By focusing the debate on the "rights" of individual parties, this group has been able to distract us from the construction work that's going on right under our noses. Make no mistake, this group may talk "rights" to the public, but they're thinking "structures," and even a cursory examination of the documents they produce will bear this out.
The type of structures that this regime is developing are outlined in a document typical of it: a product of the World Intellectual Property Organization's (WIPO) Workshop on Implementation Issues of the WIPO Copyright Treaty and the WIPO Performances and Phonograms Treaty, entitled, "Technical Protection Measures: The Intersection of Technology, Law, and Commercial Licenses." In this document, the authors outline a three-pronged strategy for the "protection of intellectual property." Again, it is important to note that this strategy was not developed by content producers "on the ground," but is a product of transnational corporate interests whose overriding concern is the maintenance of the status quo. I'll summarize this strategy briefly, because it's important that each of its three components be understood if those of us with an interest in the outcome of these developments are going to be able to address them.
The first element in this strategy is the most familiar to the technical crowd, as it involves the development of technological protection measures aimed at "protecting" content from "unauthorized uses." The current focus of the "content protection" industry is on the use of encryption and steganography (i.e. information hiding techniques like digital watermarking) to control access to digital works. The industry doesn't expect encryption to completely prevent unauthorized copying, however. Rather, it is felt that encryption will enable content owners to raise the level of difficulty associated with unauthorized reproduction and distribution of copyrighted works. If it is suitably difficult for a consumer to compromise the digital locks placed on published content, the reasoning goes, then such "pirate" activity will be limited to the few, the competent, and the dedicated. Content owners openly admit that this is a direct attempt to artificially reproduce the constraints on copying naturally inherent in analog media, thus doing away with the advantages of digital media for everyone but the content owners themselves.
Open/free software licenses probably are farther from the "traditional" copyright law than an approach discussed in the quote above. To a certain extent they are connected to the political notions of freedom and power (like in "Power without freedom is tyranny. Freedom without power is impotent."). RMS chronic abuse of the word "freedom" and simplistic (anarchistic) understanding of this complex issue is very symptomatic in this respect. That's why www.gnu.org sometimes reminds a web site of some obscure "software cult". In no way it can be considered a software developers website despite the fact that RMS was in the past a programmer himself.
It's important to understand that the material presented covers a pretty limited spectrum of questions raised in my e-book Labyrinth of Software Freedom.
My impression is that GPL outlived its usefulness and that the Artistic license (Plan 9 license generally can be considered as a longer and with more legalize derivative of the Artistic license designed for corporate use) can serve as an alternative for GPL on early stages of software development (especially if there is some public funding involved). Sun Community Software License is probably another interesting underutilized license that can be used on early stages of software development cycle. BSD license is better for mature software and here GPL is simply inadequate.
It also has problems with enforcing zero price (price fixing) that was first shown in two Wallace lawsuit that was dismissed on technical grounds. In both cases the GPL was not upheld - Wallace's complaint was dismissed without discussing its merits at the request of FSF (FSF Tries Again To Get GPL Antitrust Suit Dismissed @ ENTERPRISE OPEN SOURCE MAGAZINE)
The Defendant FREE SOFTWARE FOUNDATION INC. has entered into contracts and otherwise conspired and agreed with individual software authors and commercial distributors of commodity software products such as Red Hat Inc. and Novell Inc. to artificially fix the prices charged for computer software programs through the promotion and use of an adhesion contract that was created, used and promoted since at least the year 1991 by the FREE SOFTWARE FOUNDATION INC. This license is known as the GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE. The price fixing scheme implemented with the use of the GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE substantially lessens the ability of individual software authors to compete in a free market through the creation, sale and distribution of computer software programs. [emphasis mine]
The ruling was:
"First, while Mr. Wallace contends that the GPL is "foreclosing competition in the market for computer operating systems" (id.), his problem appears to be that GPL generates too much competition, free of charge. The court's understanding from the GPL itself is that it is a software licensing agreement through which the GNU/Linux operating system may be licensed and distributed to individual users so long as those users "cause any work that [they] distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License." (GPL 3.) The GPL purportedly functions to "guarantee [users'] freedom to share and change free software." (GPL Preamble.) As alleged, the GPL in no way forecloses other operating systems from entering the market. Instead, it merely acts as a means by which certain software may be copied, modified and redistributed without violating the software's copyright protection. As such, the GPL encourages, rather than discourages, free competition and the distribution of computer operating systems, the benefits of which directly pass to consumers. These benefits include lower prices, better access and more innovation. See Jason B. Wacha, Taking the Case: Is the GPL Enforceable, 21 Santa Clara Computer & High Tech L.J. 451, 487 (2005). And the Sherman Act "was enacted to assure customers the benefits of price competition, and . . . prior cases have emphasized the controlling interest in protecting the economic freedom of participants in the relevant market." Assoc.'d Gen. Contractors v. Cal. State Council of Carpenters, 459 U.S. 519, 528 (1983). Therefore, the court finds that the Fourth Amended Complaint does not adequately set forth an injury to competition as a whole."
- John Daniel Tinder, Judge, United States District Court, Daniel Wallace v. Free Software Foundation, Inc.
It looks like Wallace discovered in interesting property of GPL that previously was never discussed: In the article of the Stanford Center for Internet and Society "Court Finds No Antitrust Injury From GNU General Public License (GPL)" the substance of Wallace claims was outlined as follows:
This case involves the GNU General Public License (GPL), which governs the use of many products sold and distributed by the Free Software Foundation (FSF), including GNU/Linux operating systems. The GPL requires, among another things, that users who distribute or publish any work derived from GPL-covered software to license that work to under the GPL to all third parties at no charge. The plaintiff, Daniel Wallace (Wallace), was not a user of FSF software; rather, he was a competitor of FSF’s, trying to sell his own operating system. Wallace brought an action pro se against FSF claiming that it was conspiring with commercial distributors IBM, RedHat, Novell, and others to fix prices for intellectual property in the market by attaching the GPL to GNU/Linux operating system software. Wallace claimed, in essence, that the GPL constituted a horizontal price-fixing scheme among competitors in violation of Section 1 of the Sherman Antitrust Act and sought to enjoin FSF from developing and distributing Linux under the GPL. On motion by FSF, Judge Tinder of the United States District Court for the Southern District of Indiana dismissed the complaint for failure to show any “antitrust injury” from FSF’s conduct, but held that Wallace had otherwise stated a claim upon which relief could be granted.
In his third amended complaint, Wallace alleged that FSF was conspiring with its competitors to fix prices for software via the GPL. The court determined that Wallace was effectively claiming the existence of a horizontal price-fixing agreement, which would be illegal per se under the Section 1 of the Sherman Antitrust Act (prohibiting contracts and conspiracies in restraint of trade) because such horizontal arrangements are perceived to have a “pernicious effect” on competition. By comparison, vertical agreements (those between enterprises at different levels within the same chain of distribution) are governed by a “rule of reason” analysis because their effects will not always be anticompetitive. The court determined that the GPL could not be reasonably characterized as a horizontal agreement because it governs agreements between licensees and licensors, who are users at different levels within the same chain of distribution. Therefore, the court reasoned, the GPL is a vertical agreement, and it cannot alone constitute a per se violation of the Sherman Act.
The court then analyzed the GPL under the rule of reason to determine whether it might be an unreasonable restraint of trade. Under the rule of reason, a vertical licensing agreement may violate the Sherman Act if it produces adverse, anti-competitive effects such as a reduction in output, increase in price, or deterioration in the quality of goods and services, among other factors. FSF argued that its practice of allowing free access to software with the GPL aids competition rather than hinders it. However, the court held that the GPL may have an anticompetitive effect by discouraging software developers from creating better programs for Linux (since they could not be adequately compensated) and reducing the number of quality programs available to consumers. Thus, Wallace’s complaint sufficiently alleged a violation of the Sherman Act.
However, the complaint ultimately failed because the court found that Wallace had suffered no antitrust injury, i.e., injury of the sort that the antitrust laws are designed to prevent. Examining Wallace’s complaint, the court found that his only alleged injury was an inability or unwillingness to enter into the software business because he could not compete with users of Linux. Because this is an injury to a (potential) competitor rather than an injury to consumers or to competition itself, the court found no antitrust injury and dismissed the complaint.
Due the size of the page software licenses catalog was moved to separate pages. There are two common misconceptions that I would like to point out.
The first very common misconception that many people confuse "GPL", and "Open Source". Open source is actually an umbrella term and it is more correct to distinguish between OSS under particular licenses: Artistic license, BSD, GPL, MPL and several other less popular licenses. GPLed software represents less that 50% of "open source" code; the majority of "open source" code is made up of BSD, Artistic license (and its derivatives) and the other license types.
The second misconception is that open source is considered to be mainly Linux-related. In reality BSD operating systems and BSD-licensed software is older, in some areas more prominent and more technically advanced branch of open software space. While Linux might be getting all the ink, at least in ISP world BSD is doing most of the work (BTW Yahoo is running on BSD).
I actually like the 'you get something for free, you have to give something back' idea, however, I like it from the point of view of academic ethics; I don't like the GNU manifesto, I don't like Stallman's ideas about commercial software (and yes, I mean Microsoft as a example of commercial software vendor ;-), and I really don't like people who blindly follow software anarchists like Stallman.
Again, this is a "slightly skeptical" page. If someone decides to license software under the GPL, that's fine, but that should be done by looking at the license, reading relevant discussions, papers and historic cases and seeing what it's all about (and what the consequences are). Most Linux programmers however, blindly stamp GPL on their programs. Sometimes they are naively thinking that they prevent companies to profit off their work, forgetting that companies like IBM, RH, Suse (now Novell) are profiting from them already.
Finally, there are a some systemic things about the GPL/LGPL that I don't like: they are too complex, too vague, contain too much irrelevant information, and are too restrictive in case of object oriented programming (you might need a new license to get the equivalent of what the LGPL is for non-OO languages).
The other interesting topic that I added recently is abandonware.. This is a rapidly growing phenomenon and it has some grass root support. It probably will need a separate page really soon ;-). The term anbandonware is usually applied to commercial software (like Norton Commander, DOS, MS Word for DOS, WordPerfect for Linux, etc). But we need to understand that most open source projects listed say on Freshmeat are abandonware. Few are actively maintained and of those even fewer are useful. Quantity does not turn into quality automatically. See also the Usenet group misc.int-property for relevant discussions.
Dr. Nikolai Bezroukov
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August 15, 2008 | legaltimes.typepad.comFederal Circuit: Copyright Infringement Applies to 'Artistic' Licenses
Free software is available everywhere on the Web, and downloading it is a cinch. But breaking the terms of so-called “open-source" or artistic licenses can amount to copyright infringement, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit in the District of Columbia ruled this week.
The appeals court in a California case reversed a federal district court ruling that said a person who breaks the terms of an artistic license can be held liable for breach of contract, not copyright infringement. The remedy for infringement — including injunctions, statutory damages and attorney’s fees — can be more substantial than a breach of contract award.
Bob Jacobsen, a physics professor at the University of Berkeley, manages a software group called Java Model Railroad Interface, which controls a programming application called DecoderPro. Model railroad enthusiasts use DecoderPro to program chips in model trains. Jacobsen accused Oregon resident Matthew Katzer and Kamind Associates of copying materials from the publicly available software and incorporating it without following the terms of the public license. Jacobsen filed a copyright infringement complaint and sought an injunction against Katzer and Kamind Associates of Hillsboro, Oregon.
The U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California, in San Francisco, ruled Jacobsen’s artistic license was “intentionally broad” and had unlimited scope. The Federal Circuit remanded to the district court, where Jacobsen’s complaint was filed in 2006. A status conference will be held in the coming weeks.
“This decision confirms what everyone in the community knew, that the terms must be followed or it is copyright infringement,” Jacobsen’s attorney, Victoria Hall of Bethesda, told Legal Times. A message left with Katzer’s attorney, R. Scott Jerger of Field Jerger, in Portland, Oregon, was not immediately returned. Katzer could ask for a rehearing en banc or petition the Supreme Court for certiorari.
Much of the open-source litigation, Hall said, has been disposed through arrangements between the parties and through settlements. Bloggers advocating open-source software heralded the Federal Circuit’s ruling. Appeals of copyright law are rare in the Federal Circuit compared to patent law litigation.
“Copyright holders who engage in open source licensing have the right to control the modification and distribution of copyrighted material," the Federal Circuit said. Chief Circuit Judge Paul Michel of the Federal Circuit, Circuit Judge Sharon Prost and U.S. District Judge Faith Hochberg of the Northern District of New Jersey issued the order.
The judges said: “Open source licensing has become a widely used method of creative collaboration that serves to advance the arts and sciences in a manner and at a pace that few could have imagined just a few decades ago."
From: Linus Torvalds <torvalds-AT-linux-foundation.org> To: Alexandre Oliva <aoliva-AT-redhat.com> Subject: Re: Dual-Licensing Linux Kernel with GPL V2 and GPL V3 Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 08:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Cc: Ingo Molnar <mingo-AT-elte.hu>, Tarkan Erimer <tarkan-AT-netone.net.tr>, debian developer <debiandev-AT-gmail.com>, "david-AT-lang.hm" <david-AT-lang.hm>, Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel-AT-vger.kernel.org>, Andrew Morton <akpm-AT-linux-foundation.org>, Greg KH <greg-AT-kroah.com> Archive-link: Article, Thread On Tue, 12 Jun 2007, Alexandre Oliva wrote: > > Per this reasoning, Sun wouldn't be waiting for GPLv3, and it would > have already released the OpenSolaris kernel under GPLv2, would it > not? ;-) Umm. You are making the fundamental mistake of thinking that Sun is in this to actually further some open-source agenda. Here's a cynical prediction (but backed up by past behaviour of Sun): - first off: they may be talking a lot more than they are or ever will be doing. How many announcements about Sun and Linux have you seen over the years? And how much of that has actually happened? - They may like open source, but Linux _has_ hurt them in the marketplace. A lot. They almost used to own the chip design market, and it took quite a long time before the big EDA vendors ported to Linux (and x86-64 in particular). But when they did, their chip design market just basically disappeared: sparc performance is so horribly bad (especially on a workstation kind of setup), that to do chip design on them is just idiotic. Which is not to say that there aren't holdouts, but let's face it, for a lot of things, Solaris is simply the wrong choice these days. Ergo: they sure as hell don't want to help Linux. Which is fine. Competition is good. - So they want to use Linux resources (_especially_ drivers), but they do *not* want to give anything back (especially ZFS, which seems to be one of their very very few bright spots). - Ergo: they'll not be releasing ZFS and the other things that people are drooling about in a way that lets Linux use them on an equal footing. I can pretty much guarantee that. They don't like competition on that level. They'd *much* rather take our drivers and _not_ give anythign back, or give back the stuff that doesn't matter (like core Solaris: who are you kidding - Linux code is _better_). End result: - they'll talk about it. They not only drool after our drivers, they drool after all the _people_ who write drivers. They'd love to get kernel developers from Linux, they see that we have a huge amount of really talented people. So they want to talk things up, and the more "open source" they can position themselves, the better. - They may release the uninteresting parts under some fine license. See the OpenSolaris stuff - instead of being blinded by the code they _did_ release under an open source license, ask youryourself why the open source parts are not ready to bootstrap a competitive system, or why they are released under licenses that Sun can make sure they control. So the _last_ thing they want to do is to release the interesting stuff under GPLv2 (quite frankly, I think the only really interesting thing they have is ZFS, and even there, I suspect we'd be better off talking to NetApp, and seeing if they are interested in releasing WAFL for Linux). Yes, they finally released Java under GPLv2, and they should be commended for that. But you should also ask yourself why, and why it took so long. Maybe it had something to do with the fact that other Java implementations started being more and more relevant? Am I cynical? Yes. Do I expect people to act in their own interests? Hell yes! That's how things are _supposed_ to happen. I'm not at all berating Sun, what I'm trying to do here is to wake people up who seem to be living in some dream-world where Sun wants to help people. So to Sun, a GPLv3-only release would actually let them look good, and still keep Linux from taking their interesting parts, and would allow them to take at least parts of Linux without giving anything back (ahh, the joys of license fragmentation). Of course, they know that. And yes, maybe ZFS is worthwhile enough that I'm willing to go to the effort of trying to relicense the kernel. But quite frankly, I can almost guarantee that Sun won't release ZFS under the GPLv3 even if they release other parts. Because if they did, they'd lose the patent protection. And yes, I'm cynical, and yes, I hope I'm wrong. And if I'm wrong, I'll very happily retract anything cynical I said about Sun. They _have_ done great things, and maybe I'm just too pessimistic about all the history I've seen of Sun with open source. The _good_ news is that Jonathan Schwartz actually does seem to have made a difference, and I hope to God he is really as serious about open-sourcing things as he says he is. And don't get me wrong: I think a truly open-source GPLv3 Solaris would be a really really _good_ thing, even if it does end up being a one-way street as far as code is concerned! Linus
(Log in to post comments)
Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 12, 2007 18:14 UTC (Tue) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link]
Yes, I am an EDA developer, who once developed primarily on Solaris/Sparc and who now develops primarily on Linux. Sun dropped the ball years ago; they had a Solaris/x86 in the early 90s that never got any attention, because Sun management wanted to put "all the wood behind SPARC".
Provided that Sun eventually does go the GPLv3 route, or if other GPLv3 code appears interesting, Linux could start a transition to a dual license: GPLv2 or GPLv3. The advantage of those terms is that they would achieve the advantages of GPLv3 (better internationalization, compatibility with other free software licenses such as Apache's) but still avoid the DRM restriction Linus objects to (anything GPLv2 permits would still be allowed). Furthermore the kernel already has a lot of "GPLv2 or any later version" code. A transition would take a while to do, and a complete transition might require replacement of code from authors who won't play or can't be located. But the Mozilla project managed to do it; if Linus asked, I would expect the vast majority of developers to go along.
But it's up to him.
I'm sure Sun is only making these moves to attract developers. But I'm happy to see more choices.
Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 12, 2007 18:27 UTC (Tue) by cpeterso (subscriber, #305) [Link]
Furthermore the kernel already has a lot of "GPLv2 or any later version" code.I thought the kernel code was licensed under GPLv2 only? http://lxr.linux.no/source/COPYINGAlso note that the only valid version of the GPL as far as the kernel is concerned is _this_ particular version of the license (ie v2, not v2.2 or v3.x or whatever), unless explicitly otherwise stated.Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 12, 2007 19:54 UTC (Tue) by yokem_55 (subscriber, #10498) [Link]
The kernel as a complete work is GPL V2 only. Many of the individual files in the source though have the V2 or later language in them. So, if a relicensing project were started to bring the complete work of the kernel to GPL V3, those files would already be taken care of.
Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 12, 2007 18:27 UTC (Tue) by arcticwolf (guest, #8341) [Link]
How would a dual-licensed Linux help, though? If you go that route, you still can't port things like ZFS, since that'd be - if it's GPL'ed at all - GPLv3 only. So the only way to port it would be to essentially split Linux into a GPLv2 version and a GPLv3 version; and given that there'd likely be code (old or new) that would be GPLv2 only, the latter would not even be a superset of the former.So as long as Linu(x|s) doesn't go GPLv3, period, there would really be no way to make code flow from Solaris to Linux, and in fact, a dual-licensed version of Linux with an "official", integrated GPLv3 branch would actually make it easier for Sun to pull in code from Linux.
But then, maybe Linus is just a strategic genius, too - maybe all his vocal opposition to the GPLv3 is just a clever ploy to lull Sun into a false sense of security, and once they've released Solaris and/or ZFS under the GPLv3, he'll just switch over as well[1] and reach the rewards. ;)
1. Yeah, I know, he can't just do that, but for the sake of the joke, let's pretend he can.
Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 12, 2007 18:52 UTC (Tue) by ajross (subscriber, #4563) [Link]
The v2 and v3 GPL variants are explicitly compatible with each other in both directions. So there's no reason the kernel couldn't simply ship different parts of the tree under different licenses. No fork would be required except in the case where someone wanted to put together a "GPL2 only" distribution for some reason.
Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 12, 2007 19:23 UTC (Tue) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]
GPLv2 and GPLv3 are not compatible in either directionthe only thing that lets GPLv2 code change to GPLv3 is if people gave the FSF a blank check and said 'GPLv2 or later'
Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 12, 2007 21:04 UTC (Tue) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link]
True:When we say that GPLv2 and GPLv3 are incompatible, it means there is no legal way to combine code under GPLv2 with code under GPLv3 in a single program. This is because both GPLv2 and GPLv3 are copyleft licenses: each of them says, “If you include code under this license in a larger program, the larger program must be under this license too.” There is no way to make them compatible.Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 13, 2007 8:20 UTC (Wed) by forthy (guest, #1525) [Link]
The FSF took great efforts that GPL versions can be made compatible. The paragraph that deals with it is section 9 of the GPL. Read it, especially the last part - many files in the Linux kernel are not explicitly restricted to a specific GPL versions, which means "any version". And section 6 makes sure that everybody receives a license from the original licensor, not from a compilation editor like Linus Torvalds.
The compilation editor (Linus Torvalds) can set terms under which he redistributes the work, i.e. conditions he has to follow. But since everybody receives the license from the original licensors, this "restriction" is null and void, you still can make a compilation yourself which does not restrict the license version, and then, most parts of Linux are compatible with GPLv3 (because you can either choose any GPL or explicitely v2 or later).
Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 13, 2007 9:37 UTC (Wed) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link]
That kind of compatibility is not much help, unless all of the kernel is licensed as "v2 or later". As long as there is a single file licensed under "v2 only", it becomes impossible to link with a single "v3 only" file.Meanwhile, relicensing all files under a "v2 or later" license might seem to be a necessary first step to a GPLv3 kernel. But given Linus' reluctance to blanket license, I would rather expect a "dual v2-v3" license, if the migration is to be done at all.
Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 13, 2007 13:09 UTC (Wed) by job (subscriber, #670) [Link]
Maaaybe there was a good reason why the FSF recommended the use of "v2 or later" licensing. Then you basically leave the choice to the user. I never understood what Linus didn't like about that, except some unspecified fear of the FSF, which would be not only ridicolous but also unfortunate.
Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 13, 2007 13:36 UTC (Wed) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link]
It is not so unreasonable: Linus said:How can you _ever_ sign anything sight unseen? That's just stupid, and that's totally regardless of any worries about the FSF.Said that way, it looks like the correct thing to do. However, given that (as you say) "v2 or later" licensing gives the choice to the user, I'm not particularly worried about misuse.Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 13, 2007 21:56 UTC (Wed) by notamisfit (subscriber, #40886) [Link]
It creates the possibility that code created in a downstream work may not be usable upstream. Linus has put his cards on the table in the past; he wants code back.
Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 14, 2007 1:59 UTC (Thu) by error27 (subscriber, #8346) [Link]
Instead of "ridiculous and unfortunate" I would say "justified by current events."Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 12, 2007 19:06 UTC (Tue) by proski (subscriber, #104) [Link]
We could also theorize that Linus is hinting at the possibility of switching Linux to GPLv3 to dissuade Sun from releasing ZFS under GPLv3.But why would not Linus want ZFS in the kernel? The history of Linux shows that reimplemented code is more successful that ported code. XFS and JFS are rarely used, whereas ext2 and ext3 are wildly popular.
Patent issues: GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 12, 2007 19:30 UTC (Tue) by dwheeler (subscriber, #1216) [Link]
Patent issues. If Sun releases ZFS under GPLv3, ZFS is patented, and its patents on ZFS are valid, then anyone else using GPLv3 can use ZFS. They can even "bring in" the GPLv3 code and completely rewrite it, so the IMPLEMENTATION may be different but they'd still be okay legally (I think). Using GPLv2 wouldn't give them access to patents released only under GPLv3.Patent issues: GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 12, 2007 20:01 UTC (Tue) by atai (subscriber, #10977) [Link]
One would expect Sun already considered this aspect already assuming Sun will release OpenSolaris under the GPL v3.
Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 13, 2007 1:48 UTC (Wed) by wolfrider (guest, #3105) [Link]
> JFS [is] rarely used--Depends on who you ask. I use JFS now almost exclusively for Vmware and "bkps" (read: large) filesystems, where before I would use ReiserfsV3 with notail.
--After seeing how fast (and reliable) JFS is, I switched almost all my Reiser filesystems over to it - and have been much happier. Reiser is great for root and squid (tail-packing) but not ideal when you're trying to run a VM from a USB2 IDE drive. JFS makes it usable.
Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 12, 2007 20:43 UTC (Tue) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link]
If all of the kernel code were GPLv2 || GPLv3, it could be combined with a GPLv3 ZFS. The collection as a whole would be GPLv3 only if ZFS were added, but ZFS could be a module, and everything would be legal, while embedded software developers who want to do DRM could still use the rest of Linux (except ZFS).Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 12, 2007 22:28 UTC (Tue) by cyperpunks (subscriber, #39406) [Link]
Linus is right, Sun don't want Linux source code, they want Linux' kernel hackers (and then later Linux' users).Of course CDDL is hopeless is this regard as hackers must transfer copyright to Sun, who want to do that?
Sun have to fix the bootstrap problem too: it's now not possible to build a complete free Solaris "distribution". You must use some non free Sun tools at some point.
Who wants to contribute to project you can't build yourself?
Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 13, 2007 0:00 UTC (Wed) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link]
To be fair, Sun's launching a project, called "Indiana", to correct that deficiency and produce something that would resemble a GNU/Linux distribution. It will take them some time to do it, but I'm looking forward to it.Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 13, 2007 12:36 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]
Of course CDDL is hopeless is this regard as hackers must transfer copyright to Sun, who want to do that?
This is false.
You need to sign a contributors agreement with Sun, granting Sun joint ownership, if you wish to have Sun incorporate any contribution to various open-source projects which Sun founded and maintain (such as OpenSolaris, amongst other projects).
However the CDDL does not require any copyright transfership, and you're quite free to take and hack away on CDDLed code, like OpenSolaris, without giving copyright ownership to Sun or anyone else.
for the clueless
Posted Jun 12, 2007 20:01 UTC (Tue) by ccyoung (subscriber, #16340) [Link]
such as myself, what is ZFS and what makes it so hot?
Google is your friend
Posted Jun 12, 2007 20:21 UTC (Tue) by rfunk (subscriber, #4054) [Link]
http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/zfs/
for the clueless
Posted Jun 12, 2007 21:14 UTC (Tue) by huerlisi (guest, #44534) [Link]
Because it's a nice product of computer engineering. Here's a quote from a nice-to-read geeky background article :64 bits would have been plenty ... but then you can't talk out of your ass about boiling oceans then, can you?SimonWAFL != ZFS
Posted Jun 12, 2007 21:56 UTC (Tue) by qu1j0t3 (subscriber, #25786) [Link]
I have to assume Linus knows that. Sigh. If not, like another poster here, he should Google... I'm tired of posting ZFS linkfests ;-)He's treading close to the FUD-line with this one. There's also a hidden assumption here that Jonathan Schwartz is being disingenuous with his massively revamped corporate strategy.
Sun's a hardware company. They're happy for you to run Linux on your Sun gear if you prefer - it's a supported option - heck, they even support Windows.
WAFL != ZFS
Posted Jun 12, 2007 23:03 UTC (Tue) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link]
I don't think it's anywhere near FUD, personally. It sounded simply like classic Linus--he's being very transparently honest. He hopes and wishes that Schwartz and company are being as open and forthright as they claim to be, but knowing human nature and the temptations that beset us, he is keeping his powder dry and his head down, so to speak.forthright != Linus
Posted Jun 12, 2007 23:43 UTC (Tue) by qu1j0t3 (subscriber, #25786) [Link]
It's not very "forthright" to inject snide Linusisms such as "the only really interesting thing they have is ZFS, and even there, I suspect we'd be better off talking to NetApp"! XFS is already integrated, and that has about as much in common with ZFS as WAFL does.
It comes across as sour grapes about the license, and even some N-I-H ("core Solaris: who are you kidding - Linux code is _better_"). Btw, there is as much spurious rancor of the opposite polarity from the Sun camp, as recent zfs-discuss flamefests can attest.
Why can't we all just get along? - Admit that some people like BSD license, some people like GPL, Sun likes CDDL for now, and ZFS plain rocks... :)
Linux devs ignore it at their peril; Linus, being an engineer of Sun's calibre, could do a much more helpful job of deconstructing the issue.
forthright != Linus
Posted Jun 13, 2007 0:03 UTC (Wed) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link]
The issue with Sun is not that they prefer a particular license, but that they are choosing to license patents only to code that uses their particular license, while IBM, Red Hat, Novell, and others are licensing a number of patents (or in Red Hat's case, all their patents) to developers who use a much larger set of open source licenses.okay but,
Posted Jun 13, 2007 0:21 UTC (Wed) by qu1j0t3 (subscriber, #25786) [Link]
This still does not fully explain to me why, to date, kernel devs aren't looking dispassionately as the affordances of ZFS and how they might have them without stepping on anyone's patent*. Max V. Yudin recently asked on zfs-discuss,... is it legal to write ZFS clone from scratch while maintaining binary compatibility with original?
Jeff mentioned in his blog that Sun filled 56 patents on ZFS related technologies. Can anybody from the company provide me with more information about this?
If porting ZFS to Linux kernel is not an option and I were to implement different file system with ZFS ideas in mind how can I be safe and not break any Sun patents?
There has been no meaningful resolution of his questions. At least it may prove that, thanks to software patents, interesting development is now impossible. So much for stimulating innovation...
* - I suppose NetApp has patents too, but perhaps Linus wishes to imply that they would be more tractable to deal with than Sun (maybe he actually knows somebody @ NetApp). Let's dream for a moment, and imagine that Linus and Jonathan, over a piña colada one Sunday, work out a magical way to free ZFS for kernel inclusion. That would be a P/R coup for Sun an order of magnitude greater than even the Apple buzz. Since Solaris 10 famously runs on all varieties of hardware (IBM, HP, Dell, even Macs), I don't seriously think Jonathan believes this would damage hardware sales. Then again, I only have the ponytail, not an MBA, and my bonuses are a few zeroes short of his. ;-)
okay but,
Posted Jun 13, 2007 7:57 UTC (Wed) by TRS-80 (subscriber, #1804) [Link]
One could always start from Sun's GPLv2 ZFS code in GRUB. And Jonathon Schwartz has just posted saying Linux ZFS would have full patent indemnity.okay but,
Posted Jun 13, 2007 9:38 UTC (Wed) by michaeljt (subscriber, #39183) [Link]
That said "GPL v2 or later" if I read correctly. I didn't take the time to read the code, but presumably that is only code for reading and would not affect potential patents on writing parts.On another note, if Sun make Solaris GPL3 and accept external contributions, it might get tricky to keep parts (i.e. ZFS) under another licence.
okay but,
Posted Jun 13, 2007 19:51 UTC (Wed) by dlang (subscriber, #313) [Link]
note that the zfs code released for grub is not enough to actually be able to write to the filesystem, just enough for grub to be able to find the files that it needs.Netapp and patents
Posted Jun 22, 2007 7:10 UTC (Fri) by anton (guest, #25547) [Link]
I suppose NetApp has patents too, but perhaps Linus wishes to imply that they would be more tractable to deal with than SunYes, Netapp has patents, and they caused Daniel Phillips to stop working on the tux2 filesystem; I have not followed the story enough to know if Netapp did anything other than file the patents to achieve this result.Netapp's WAFL is not very interesting for Linux anyway, because it requires special NVRAM hardware to buffer writes during some of the more time-consuming operations (e.g., snapshot creation). I don't think that this hardware dependence can be eliminated without major changes to the WAFL code.
Concerning not breaking Sun patents, you can look for older sources where similar ideas have been described, e.g., various papers on log-structured file systems, e.g., our Freenix 2000 paper, or (maybe too young) my file system ideas.
ZFS and WAFL
Posted Jun 15, 2007 0:02 UTC (Fri) by joern (subscriber, #22392) [Link]
> XFS is already integrated, and that has about as much in common with ZFS as WAFL does.That is plain wrong. XFS is in the huge class of traditional filesystems with a static mapping between file offsets and device offsets. ZFS is in the somewhat smaller (ignoring reseach projects) class of COW filesystems, just like WAFL. Anyone unable to see the similarities is well advised to read more and write less. ;)
ZFS and WAFL
Posted Jun 17, 2007 15:30 UTC (Sun) by qu1j0t3 (subscriber, #25786) [Link]
As you see I haven't studied XFS in depth, but I was under the impression it was COW like ZFS. AFAIK, WAFL also lacks the more interesting features of ZFS (foremost being end-to-end checksumming).
ZFS and WAFL
Posted Jun 17, 2007 17:29 UTC (Sun) by joern (subscriber, #22392) [Link]
Checksums are easy to add once you have a COW format. Either you add them to the block pointers, as ZFS did, or you add them to the objects themselves, as JFFS2 and LogFS did.
Either way you have an incompatible format change. But the amount of code affected if rather small. Took about 1-2% of the effort to design a new filesystem in the LogFS case.
btrfs?
Posted Jun 17, 2007 18:06 UTC (Sun) by qu1j0t3 (subscriber, #25786) [Link]
Maybe so, but there's quite a lot of catch-up to do. Once you have COW, transactions, and checksums, then you want self-healing; then snapshots; pools; quotas; compression; and so on, until you eventually have something like ZFS. :)
Linus' grandstanding aside, it's possible there is quiet work going on to improve the situation, as David Magda commented on zfs-discuss:
Somewhat off topic, but it seems that someone released a COW file system for Linux (currently in 'alpha'): * Extent based file storage (2^64 max file size) * Space efficient packing of small files * Space efficient indexed directories * Dynamic inode allocation * Writable snapshots * Subvolumes (separate internal filesystem roots) - Object level mirroring and striping * Checksums on data and metadata (multiple algorithms available) - Strong integration with device mapper for multiple device support - Online filesystem check * Very fast offline filesystem check - Efficient incremental backup and FS mirroring http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/6/12/242 http://oss.oracle.com/~mason/btrfs/ Via Storage Mojobtrfs?
Posted Jun 17, 2007 19:05 UTC (Sun) by joern (subscriber, #22392) [Link]
> Maybe so, but there's quite a lot of catch-up to do. Once you have COW, transactions, and checksums, then you want self-healing; then snapshots; pools; quotas; compression; and so on, until you eventually have something like ZFS. :)
Sure, ZFS has an impressive set of features. If nothing else, it has showed how things can be done. And I have little doubt that btrfs, which you quoted, will end up having most of those features relatively soon. And even if Chris dies tomorrow, I'll keep working on LogFS.
The only question is when, not if. :)
good to hear
Posted Jun 17, 2007 19:15 UTC (Sun) by qu1j0t3 (subscriber, #25786) [Link]
The only question is when, not if. :)
From comments I've heard, and the buzz around Linus' and Jon's posts, there seems to be considerable community interest around ZFS (I don't want to use anything else, or wait, so I switched to Solaris 10 some time ago).
Look forward to more news on this front. Did you follow-up on LKML? (I have not checked :)
good to hear
Posted Jun 17, 2007 21:43 UTC (Sun) by joern (subscriber, #22392) [Link]
> From comments I've heard, and the buzz around Linus' and Jon's posts, there seems to be considerable community interest around ZFS (I don't want to use anything else, or wait, so I switched to Solaris 10 some time ago).> Look forward to more news on this front. Did you follow-up on LKML? (I have not checked :)
My personal interest is in flash, not hard disks. Therefore ZFS is impressive technology, but solving someone else's problem. It is not the last word in filesystems either, as the fsck will run for hours or days if it ever becomes necessary. So there remain valid reasons to work on different filesystems.
Impressive technology none the less.
COW for Flash?
Posted Jun 18, 2007 17:26 UTC (Mon) by qu1j0t3 (subscriber, #25786) [Link]
It has been said that COW is ideal for Flash. Can you explain why ZFS isn't relevant here?
There is no fsck; ZFS is "always consistent on disk" (through COW+atomic transactions). It seems to me this is a necessary invariant to achieve its other features (such as snapshots). Debate flares up (occasionally) as to whether a scavenger will be necessary. If so, it won't much resemble 'fsck' - and certainly won't be run in normal operation or after reset/powerfail/etc (ZFS behaviour under impromptu reset is extremely well tested).
I suspect, but correct me if I'm wrong, once you "know" you've lost data in ZFS (through exhausting redundancy or ditto blocks), it's actually gone by definition, and unrecoverable by re-creating links. No doubt Bonwick et all have explained it better somewhere...
COW for Flash?
Posted Jun 19, 2007 8:17 UTC (Tue) by joern (subscriber, #22392) [Link]
> It has been said that COW is ideal for Flash. Can you explain why ZFS isn't relevant here?Raw flash behaves sufficiently different to hard disks that some ZFS design assumptions become untrue. Flash has large erase blocks. Within erase blocks, data must be written from front to back. Writing the block again requires erasing all of it. So the filesystem block size either has to be equal to the erase block size, or you need garbage collection. And with garbage collection comes a nasty deadlock problem most people don't even realize exists. :)
Next comes wear out and protection against it. Afaics, ZFS has several hot zones that receive significantly more writes than others.
I guess those two are the big reasons.
linux core better?
Posted Jun 12, 2007 23:54 UTC (Tue) by genius (guest, #19981) [Link]
i dont think i can agree with it. that was a blog last time about the linux kernel having problem scaling beyond 8-way compared to bsd. not sure whether they have solved it. on the other hand, linux has definitely revived interest in unix.
linux core better?
Posted Jun 13, 2007 0:11 UTC (Wed) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link]
You are seriously out of date; folks at SGI have Linux running on 1024 processors.The Solaris and BSD folks cannot claim to be more scalable than Linux at this point; it appears that the reverse is true.
what epoch are you posting from?
Posted Jun 13, 2007 2:37 UTC (Wed) by xoddam (subscriber, #2322) [Link]
> linux kernel having problem scaling beyond 8-way compared to bsd.
You're several years behind. A long time_t in LKML-land.
what epoch are you posting from?
Posted Jun 13, 2007 3:03 UTC (Wed) by Nick (subscriber, #15060) [Link]
Poster is probably talking about this blog entryhttp://jeffr-tech.livejournal.com/5705.html
So he is right, and Linux did have a problem on this workload. Basically it was a combination of a glibc inefficiency and the fact that nobody seems to have reported such a workload before. The fix was basically
a small change to the way malloc/free works, and a little patch to the kernel to optimise the new path used by glibc.http://www.thisishull.net/showpost.php?s=5d2bfa8b5a070728...
That post found the fixes to have eliminated the big dropoff. Note it still doesn't scale past 8-way, but this is likely to be a MySQL issue -- BSD doesn't do any better.
what epoch are you posting from?
Posted Jun 14, 2007 7:36 UTC (Thu) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]
Those things seem to have triggered some sort of bug.Rest assured people do have real-world Linux boxes that have over 512 cpus in a single system image. SGI has boxes, at least, have Linux boxes with 4096 cpus in a single system image.
As far as clustering goes.. there are Linux systems with tens of thousands of cpus going.
Linux kernel itself does scale past 8 cpus. Of course nothing is perfect.
Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Linus on GPLv3 and ZFS
Posted Jun 13, 2007 12:25 UTC (Wed) by marduk (subscriber, #3831) [Link]
Reads like typical salesmanship. Sales talk always "sounds" good...I actually disagreed with his implication that communities don't compete (only corporations). There exists competition in the OSS community.
competition
Posted Jun 13, 2007 12:47 UTC (Wed) by qu1j0t3 (subscriber, #25786) [Link]
There difference may be that it's augmentative competition rather than destructive - In business, it's optimal to completely eliminate rivals. In open source, you don't have to do that; you can just do better. It's a more pure meritocracy. I hope. :)That said, there's still some dirty pool played from time to time, but since it's played in the open, it hardly festers.
Linus Torvalds, leader of the Linux kernel project and a major figure in the open-source programming movement, said Wednesday he's "pretty pleased" with changes in a third draft of the General Public License (GPL) released Wednesday.
The Linux kernel and many higher-level software packages are governed by the current GPL 2, and Torvalds has expressed strong displeasure with earlier version 3 drafts. After a preliminary analysis of GPL 3, however, some of those concerns are gone or moderated, he said.
"I'm actually pretty pleased. Not because I think it's perfect, but simply because I think it's certainly a lot better than I really expected from the previous drafts," he said in an interview. "Whether it's actually a better license than the GPLv2, I'm still a bit skeptical, but at least it's now 'I'm skeptical' rather than 'Hell no!'"
In particular, one provision against digital rights management has been narrowed, and another that Torvalds feared could lead to multiple incompatible versions of the GPL has been removed or defanged.
"I'm much happier with many parts of it. I think much of it reads better, and some of the worst horrors have been removed entirely," Torvalds said.
The Free Software Foundation (FSF) has been accused of working to prevent co-operation between the free and proprietary software sectors, thanks to new terms in the latest draft version of the GNU GPL.
Unsurprisingly, the speediest criticism came from Microsoft, whose deal with Novell prompted the inclusion of the controversial clauses in the first place.
Horacio Gutierrez, Microsoft's vice president of intellectual property and licensing, told eWeek: "We note that the draft of the GPLv3 does not tear down the bridge Microsoft and Novell have built for their customers. It is unfortunate, however, that the FSF is attempting to use the GPLv3 to prevent future collaboration among industry leaders to benefit customers."
Microsoft holds that Linux infringes several of its patents and late last year signed a deal with Novell, under which Novell's customers were indemnified against legal action by Microsoft. Novell was roundly criticised at the time: the Open Source sector felt that the deal was a tacit admission that Linux does infringe Redmond's IP, something Novell has strenuously denied.
Many also felt the deal ran counter to the spirit of the GPL, even if it was technically compliant. Jeremy Allison, now ex-head of Novell's Samba team, resigned in protest. He said in a memo: "We can pledge patents all we wish, we can talk to the press and 'community leaders', we can do all the right things w.r.t. all our other interactions, but we will still be known as GPL violators and that's the end of it."
Novell maintains that the agreement did comply with the terms of the GPL, specifically the requirement that all recipients of the code should be treated equally, since there was no agreement between Novell and Microsoft, just between Microsoft and Novell's customers.
The new draft specifically prohibits deals like the one done by Microsoft and Novell from now on.
Morgan Reed, executive director of The Association for Competitive Technology said the new terms mean the GPL "no longer just defines freedom; it is designed to punish companies and business models that Richard Stallman just doesn't like".
The FSF's Richard Stallman believes the foundation had to do something. He argues that there are four "defining freedoms" to free software: the freedom to run the program as you see fit, study and adapt it for your own purposes, redistribute copies to help your neighbour, and release your improvements to the public.
"The recent patent agreement between Microsoft and Novell aims to undermine these freedoms. In this draft, we have worked hard to prevent such deals from making a mockery of free software," he said.
The second draft of GPLv.3 is just that, a draft. There is a 60 day period during which suggestions can be submitted. You can comment on the draft here.
Sun Sticks With Solaris CDDL (For Now)
By Sean Michael Kerner
Whether or not Sun will migrate to the upcoming GPL version 3 license for OpenSolaris and Java is a question resulting in much speculation.
Currently OpenSolaris is licensed under Sun's Common Development and Distribution License (CDDL) license and Java is set to be licensed under GPL v2. GPL v3 , which is currently still under development adds new terms for digital rights management (DRM) and patents that could have wide ranging effects on licensees.
Sun Microsystems' Chief Open Source Officer, Simon Phipps, explained that Sun is picking the best license on a case-by-case basis for its software and will continue to use the license that is most appropriate for the community involved.
That said, some things aren't going to change.
"I've got no intention of removing CDDL from OpenSolaris as it has been an ideal license for OpenSolaris," Phipps told internetnews.com. "The CDDL is doing a fine job with that community. The role of the license is to empower the innovator and the CDDL is demonstrably doing a good job of empowering OpenSolaris."
Phipps noted that under CDDL, OpenSolaris has grown its user base and contributions. At least five distributions are now available that are based on OpenSolaris, which is facilitated by the CDDL.
Just because the CDDL is working doesn't necessarily mean that Phipps won't consider adding another license to OpenSolaris. He commented that if the community wants another license than he would consider it. In fact, Phipps noted that he is just starting to see a debate in the OpenSolaris community on whether to add GPL v3.
Currently Sun uses the GPL v2 license in some of its software applications, though Sun isn't automatically going to migrate to v3 when it comes out.
Under the terms of the GPL v2, licensees "have the option of following the terms and conditions either of that version or of any later version published by the Free Software Foundation."
However, if "the program does not specify a version number of this license, you may choose any version ever published by the Free Software Foundation." Some applications, notably the Linux kernel and MySQL have included the language "GPLv2 only," as opposed to "GPLv2 or later," implying that an automatic changeover will not occur.
"I look at the 'or any latter version clause' and think it's a really strange thing for any responsible enterprise to use in its licensing," Phipps said. "That's carte blanche to a successive body to act in a way that is against your interests."
The fact that Sun is not using the "or any later version clause" does not imply any sort of criticism or lack of confidence in the GPL v3 process. Rather, it's a matter of responsibility, according to Phipps.
Phipps argued that with Java, for example, there are five million developers that rely on Java for their livelihood. "It would be absolutely irresponsible of me to license Java in a way that would endanger the livelihood of the developers working on it," Phipps said.
Sun has been very active in the GPL v3 process since the beginning. Phipps noted that he has every confidence that GPL v3 will be a license that will be usable in some areas of Sun's software business.
In the case of both OpenSolaris and Java, the respective communities will debate on whether or not GPL v3 is right for them, though, in the final analysis, the decision to actually use GPL v3 is up to Sun.
"Ultimately in each of those cases, Sun is the copyright holder and it is Sun that has to take the action," Phipps said. "So ultimately the decision is mine."
"I'm not going to pick a license that is still not published," Phipps said. "Licenses give freedom to developers and I need to know that the license chosen gives the developers that I'm serving and protecting the freedoms that they desire."
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